How funny. This is classic Jupiter Jenkins baiting for more rhetorical conversation. In regards to your reply to my post the other day, your reply exemplifies my point.

“Where I disagree with you two gentlemen is that I understand corporations operate only at the behest of the state/community and the profit they accrue is not private personal wealth but is regularly siphoned off to stockholders who are mostly concerned about optimizing their investment.”

Again, corporations are not people and do not exhibit behavior in a relative sense.

Let me back up. I have studied business from both a sociological perspective as well as a psychological perspective. The sociological standpoint dictates that we understand businesses, corporations, institutions from a collective holistic perspective. The psychological perspective dictates that we look at the prior entities from an individualized perspective. There is no quandary with you looking at things from the sociological perspective, for it can be a useful way to understand how institutions may look like they “behave” in certain manners. The reason I argue for the psychological perspective is that you are continually interjecting into your blog about the importance of intimacy and respect of the individual relationships that you struggle with, relate to and revel in.

In this sense, I will continue….

“Corporations (like Chevron and AT&T) need to be held accountable at all levels”

From the psychological perspective, Corporations don’t need to be held accountable, but rather people need to be held accountable at all levels. Corporate executives need to be and are often held accountable for their actions and behaviors whether it is private (ENRON, Exxon, etc.) or public (Bell city CA, Bill Clinton, etc). Considering they represent a small portion of the general population who are often in the limelight, we can see this as a society and make accountability happen.

“The prudent thing would be for a person/corporation, of their own volition, to contribute to society in a meaningful and long lasting manner so as to benefit society as a whole as opposed to being forced into anything.”

Maybe this statement was not fully understood. If I were to rephrase this statement it may look something like this:

“It is highly likely and probable that we will continue on this journey of selfish intrinsic motives for our behaviors until we as a human species at all levels change our mindset to be motivated to ‘give’ as much as we ‘want’. From the CEO to the pick-swinging ditch-digger we are very much motivated by what is important to our own interests as opposed to societies as a whole.”

Since the bottom line of any corporation is dictated by the people who are involved with it, the change must be with the people not the mindlessness inhuman entity. This is true for anything. Other examples (maybe cliché), “guns don’t kill people, people kill people”. How can we hold a gun accountable? Money does not make the world go round; people make the world go around. How can we hold money accountable? Corporations don’t need to be held accountable, the people involved need to be held accountable. I realize that this subject is a lot more complex than these oversimplified examples, but I am exacerbating the situation to make the point.

“[I]f the domain of ideas is surrendered to those who want to make the most money, then the debate that is so essential for a functioning democracy will not take place. To a large degree it is this silence that has overtaken much of American intellectual life.”

The people who hold the domain of ideas are both individuals as well as part of a collective whole. People will always debate at multiple levels for we are a verbal species, which along with opposable thumbs sets us apart from animals. The democracy is made up of people and if the democracy is “dysfunctional” it could be argued that it is a direct reflection of the people who make it up (just like a family system).

“Freedom of speech is the very foundation of democracy. To allow private interest to monopolize the most powerful means of reaching the human mind is to destroy democracy. Without freedom of speech, without the honest presentation of facts by people whose primary interest is not profits, there can be no intelligent basis for the determination of public policy.”

Another way to look at this powerful paragraph is from the psychological or individualized perspective. It could be argued that individualized intellect is the foundation of democracy, for without individualization speech, thought, and democracy would not be an idea. This paragraph is also riddled with political overtones, which these days are very demonstrative in nature. We as a society are continually debating our own interests (democrat verses republican, liberal verses conservative, tomato verses tomaughto etc). We do this through speech, but we base this on our individuality which is made up of our lifetime of experiences and life education.

“The idea that our society has been fundamentally affected by the importance of money is widely recognized. Other values that have been looked to as countervailing forces are fast disappearing. Not only our belongings but our jobs and, indeed, our selves have become commodities to be bought and sold to the highest bidder. There have been other times in history when such changes have taken place. But now, linked to globalization and to the industrialization of the media, the effects are all the more staggering.”

To me, this statement professes that we are a product of our hybrid society that is somewhere between capitalism, socialism and imperialism.

“If some of my readers (Ray, David) disagree with me and my weird ideas (see comments to the previous post), I hope this might help them see the logic in them (or that I’m not alone in them) even if they think I’m wrongheaded and off base.”

None has said that your ideas are “weird” or that you are “wrongheaded”. These are your own words that you place on yourself. I know where you are coming from because I have known you in some respects all my life and you have me. I just simply see the world a little differently than you and Mr. Hinkle regardless of our agreements or disagreements, which consequently should be my earned right as an individual whom makes up this democracy, contributes to it and has literally served it in vocation and country service (regardless of how dysfunctional or strayed from a textbook definition democracy is viewed these days). What would really be scary is if everyone agreed with everyone else. Droids come to mind (the Matrix, Terminator series, Logan’s Run etc….).

There you have it, I have said my piece and took the bait. Let’s see if I this subject can be reeled in, swallows the hook, or breaks free…

David J

David,

Sorry if I seemed to be “baiting” you in today’s post. I put in the paragraph about you and Ray in today’s blog because I thought it was obvious that the ideas that I had run across in my reading the night before were related to how I think about democracy and corporations and I didn’t want to seem like I was trying to look up stuff that supported my way of thinking and refuted yours.

I am interested in conversation. And I thank you for responding online to my silly blog. I sometimes think that you and I are talking at cross purposes. Since you are my son I would much prefer to have conversations in person with you, so that I could catch your affect as well as your words. You are an intelligent, articulate person. Both with words and body language. It would be very helpful to be in the room with you when we talk about stuff like this. We definitely often seem to see things differently. I am okay with that. I respect you and your ideas and points of view and figure I can learn from them even when we don’t agree.

The topic we are talking about (individuals versus institutions or corporations) is not one that I feel too strongly about. I agree with many of your ideas about individualism. I definitely see that the American history and culture is one of individualism and that I, myself, operate from this point of view. I think of Granpop Jenkins who was definitely a strong-willed self-conscious individualist.

If I understand your objections to my wanting to hold corporations accountable, you are saying that it is the individuals in the organizations that are accountable for their actions. I certainly don’t disagree with that.

And it also sounds like you are alluding in places to the classic concept of “Moral Imperative.” which I understand to partially mean that all people should treat each other the way they want to be treated. The equality notion you mention.

I certainly am for that.

Where we probably part ways is that I feel like incorporated institutions are hurting our society by the actions of the few individuals in them. When they represent the interests of these corporations at the expense of many individuals in our society, it troubles me. I think these institutions have got to be regulated by the society not by themselves. I think the business community (especially the large conglomerates) has lost sight of the idea of “Servant Leadership” which is where the individuals in institutions factor in the good of the larger community as they make decisions.

My suspicion is that we are witnessing the emergence of new societal entities in which multi-national conglomerates are acting above and beyond states and countries and vying to supersede them.

I see that you are coming from an entirely different angle and that Ray comes from a third point of view.

Another place of disagreement might be that individuals do what they mean to do in the context of institutions and it is they who should be held accountable not the organization. I think systems work differently than that. I think that the culture of an institution often takes over and people act in ways they would not if they were acting solely for themselves. They are influenced by the context and sometimes act in ways they are think they are expected to act (hence the idea of a culture of an organization) of even are affected unconsciously. This is certainly true of groups of people in religious communities.

This talk of institutions reminds me of my father quite a bit. He had some pretty strong ideas about institutions and used to say that after an organization gets going the purpose of the organization changes from its original chartered purpose to basically perpetuating itself at all costs. I know he was thinking of his experiences with the institutional church when he said that.

Anyway, I’m not consciously trying to provoke you. I like it that you comment.

hey, can I have the stuff you sent David too?
I was thinking of responding to that post – you said you thought that was “enough for today” and I was going to say I can’t get enough, and please keep posting more.

x
i love you!
x

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Thank you ComcastMark. A tech came today and replaced my cable modem. Hopefully that will fix the problems I was having. Thanks for reading my blog. Come back again.

[…] free mostly original sheet music […]

I have sung the Psalm 67 piece. I think it was probably at Ohio Wesleyan. I loved it. I keep looking at the Swafford bio. I read Vivian Perls’ bio 25+ years ago and enjoyed it very much. And some of his prose stuff in that old Norton (?) collection.

This is my second bio by Swafford. I read his bio of Brahms and quite liked it. I have access to Naxos again and have found a wonderful recording of the Ives Psalms. Marcus Creed and Stuttgart Vocal Ensemble. I can listen to it online by logging in to my Hope account. I still might purchase it because (contrary to the B&N review linked below) I think it’s a stellar recording. I don’t know the Perls bio.

http://music.barnesandnoble.com/Charles-Ives-Psalms/Marcus-Creed/e/4010276020578

Re: your note on Detroit. I have found it very interesting to hear how much Cincinnati has done with their downtown over the past 10 years after some very nasty riots vs. what Detroit has not done to bring their city back. It seems to me that Detroit (and Flint) have had so much time to overcome things and yet the people, elected officials, business owners, police, etc.. will not come together to make the changes needed. It is a shame to see cities that have potential continue to decline decade after decade. Every time I hear how great other cities are, or go a thriving downtown Cincinnati, I always think – Detroit could have this!

Yeah, I understand Cincinnati is a great town. Detroit’s history is long and complex. There is definitely currently some huge problems that don’t seem to have answers. I do think it is in part connected to the whole state economy which is pretty scary. I’m lucky to be living in a part of the state where we are relatively unscathed when compared to Detroit or even Benton Harbor.

Thanks for commenting!!!

Hi Mr. Jupiter
Idealism is a difficult thing to implement and especially liberal points of view which have good intention, but outcomes which are not wanted. Certainly if one wanted to create a dependent society where no one is responsible and the likelihood of innovation and ultimately creativity are squashed, just continue down the road that we are on. The practicality of the situation never seems to included in the idealism and sometimes this can be a problem.
The idea that government does and should solve your problems is where liberalism becomes unhinged. This dependence of society on government is unrealistic and fatally flawed. The focus should be on the individual becoming self reliant with the Freedom to effect their own lives. Of course, what do I know.

Ray,

I was wondering if you were still reading me. Heh. Good to know you’re still there.

Your definition of liberalism is the one I hear on tv and see on angry blogs and tweets. It makes little sense to me.

We are unhinged as a country not due to current incarnations miscalled liberalism and conservatism (the left is not “liberal” and the right is not “conservative”). For me it’s not a partisan issue. Partisanship can lead us toward something. Discussion is a good thing. A step towards shared wisdom.

I view the government as an expression of the society. It is “we the people.” Sure this is ideal. But I see it as a founding ideal.

In my view, you can judge a society by how well it takes care of its weak and unprotected, not by its GDP. This is a first century Christian-Judaic notion (“widows and orphans”) and I know it’s out of sync with a market understanding of life. The irony of someone like me who struggles with the whole idea of religion basing his values on the sayings and life of Jesus is not lost on me and makes me a little crazy.

Nevertheless I believe it is true. And I see it as what our country is based one. We are not only responsible for ourselves but for each other. You can easily disagree with this notion. Maybe you think that we unhinged solely because we are no longer the self-reliant Yankees of American history and have had our personal freedoms usurped by an out of control governmental bureaucracy. Ideal Individualism is a strong part of our history and our identity. But I don’t think it’s the complete picture myself.

I suspect we are unhinged due to many complex reasons. Some of these emanate from misguided notions of the extreme left and right, sure. But one of them is the lack of honesty in the current political discussion. I know it can’t be completely honest, but it frustrates me when people use techniques like framing and misrepresenting their organizations to disguise their motives.

Also I see incoherence in the public debate. People use words wrong and outline propaganda as though it were argument.

Another factor seems to me that it is difficult to carry on a coherent discussion of who we are as a country with people we disagree with.

Keep up the excellent weight loss. I met with my doctor on Wednesday morning and continue to lose weight. I have another 30 to do. This will take me to 170. I would love to have a G&T as well. I do think that life is connected to how you think. You seem to exercise your brain every day and all the time. Seems to be working great. Hope you have a good Easter.
Ray

Ray,

Thanks for the encouragement! I know that you have been working on your health. Glad to hear it’s going well. Sounds like we weigh about the same now. My wiifit plus thingo keeps telling me how obese I am and how I need to lose zillions of pounds. I’m satisfied with the rate I have losing….. not sure I’ll make its recommendation…

Best wishes to you and fam this Easter!

Steve

Hi Steve,
I just have a minute, but I always try to read every day. I am also, in the midst of final examinations and wow, I am ready for this to be done. I cannot believe how little students use their brain to think critically. But that is another story. I would like to come over sometime soon. Again later.
Say hello to your brother. I have a great picture of him at our wedding. Will try to post when I can.
Ray

I often think about being a Bum, being a bum would be some fun.
Nothing to do but play, read, hang out and sing
going from here to there with no real purpose or need. Yes that’s the life for me, no worries, no responsibilities, no keys. Just living the life that has been given to me. Being a bum, yes that’s for me, yet I still have all those worries, responsibilities and keys.
Ray Hinkle

Do you remember Marcia’s gramma? She would call people bums in the most charming way. Heh.

Well, I remember that there was all of those people in a very small house. I do remember her grandma and grandpa. Wow, that takes me back. I think of you often and not as a bum, Hope that you are well.
Ray

Well, this reminds me that it was you that introduced me to the Mothers of Invention. I think of Zappa every so often, I still have the vinyl recordings.

I wish your Mother a very good day today. I miss my Mother very much.

It is a beautiful spring day for remembrances.
Ray